The Invisible Loss

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0:57 Did you know women represent just three percent of Fortune five hundred CEOs and less than fifteen percent of corporate executives at top companies worldwide? Have you wondered what the secrets are to getting into the top ranks, whether in the private or public sector. Do you want to figure out how to stop being held back in your career? Are pasted over for promotion? Then you're in the right place. Hi, I'm doctor Madlananne lewis President and CEO of the Executive Women's Success Institute. I have decades of experience in the military, the federal government, and corporate America, and my mission is to help women succeed and tap into their full potential.

1:42 I want to reach a million plus women around the world to become the leaders they are meant to be. So if you want to move into a management or executive level position, or maybe you are a female veteran transitioning out of the military into business entrepreneurship, then reach out to the Executive Women's Success Institute at. Three zero one six' nine three three two eight four. Let us get you on the fast track to. Success, well, hello and welcome to The success For Women's, show where you can view us On talk FOR tv and listen to us on The women To Women. NETWORK i am Doctor madeline And lewis your, host and my mission is to help women accelerate.

2:42 The path to. Success and our topic today is the invisible loss and you're going to be surprised at what that. Means and my guess is none other Than Miss laverne. McKinnon let me just. Give you a little bit of background On. Laverne verne McKinnon is a grief, coach career, strategist and speaker who helps, executives, entrepreneurs and creatives navigate, transitions whether embracing a, pivot stepping into leadership or recovering from career. Disruption as a senior entertainment, executive she Developed emmy And Golden globe nominated series AT cbs And epics and executive Produced Netflix's Girl. Boss she teaches At Northwestern university and she mentors through THE Cape Leadership. FELLOWSHIP i want to bring on and introduce to our platform, Today Ms laverne.

3:51 McKinnon, hi Doctor, mettle And i'm so excited and happy to be here and to be chatting with. You it's a real. Honor, well it's an honor to have you on the, platform you. Know WHEN i was reading all your background and some of the things that you've, DONE i, mean it's just. Phenomenal so we're just glad to have you here to share some of your success. Nuggets but BEFORE i get, STARTED i always read the standard bio on my, Guests but THEN i like to ask my guests to JUST i just want you to tell us what you want us to know About laverne. McKinnon i love this question because hearing you read that, BIO i was, Like, oh that actually sounds, okay that's not so. Bad but what's hidden behind that bio is the hard truth that after ten years AT cbs and being part of the team that took the network from last place to, FIRST i was fired from that job AND i completely, blindsided absolutely dev, Stated and the work THAT i do now is so informed from that moment in time WHERE i did have the rug pulled out from underneath. Me and some other things THAT i feel Like i'd love for people to know is That i'm a, Wife i'm a. MOTHER i have two, daughters both. Adopted my eldest is adopted From china and my youngest is

5:23 adopted through THE la foster care. System and Being i'm not saying anything original, here being a mom is the, hardest most fulfilling Job i've ever. Had. Wow and LIKE i, SAID i said in the, beginning people are going to be surprised at the topic WHERE i said the invisible, loss because we're actually referring to even calling you a group. Coach we're referring to the career and the different things that happens to people in their careers and how they may react to. It so tell, us and then you talk about career, Grief what is it and how is it different from burnout or imposter sym.

6:08 Draw. Yeah so career grief in the simplest form is when something at work changes that you, really really really did not want to. Change and SO i spoke about my, firing, layoffs. Downsizing but career grief also encompasses the investment that you have made of your time and energy and resources to get a project across the finish, line and maybe it loses funding or it launches and it's not well. Received it's marketing, mishaps professional. Embarrassments essentially any type of grief that is not, recognized, validated or. Supported and so some people listening might be or watching might be, thinking wait a, second how is something that happened at work a grief?

6:57 Event and so it's a form of grief that bereavement experts call disenfranchised. Grief and so it it's. Valid it's not something THAT i just made up BECAUSE i felt really really bad about what happened to. Me but it took, me Doctor, madeline ten years to figure out that the FEELINGS i was having about a professional heartbreak that it was. Grief, Wow and that's you, Know and to be, honest a lot of people go through it and some probably don't even recognize what it. IS i, mean just to the point where if you wake up in the morning and you think.

7:37 To, yourself, oh, MAN i really don't feel like going to this, place you, know because of the things that you have to go through and the things that you have to put up. With that's that sends a lot of people into. Depression and sometimes they may not even realize that it's the job or the, career the profession or whatever it is that's doing. That. Yeah, absolutely because grief is a direct result of how deeply we were attached to a, person a, place or a. Thing so you AND i could have been working at the same. Company we both have been laid. Off you are, like, Awesome, Great i'm going to go on to my next. Adventure And i'm lying on the floor sobbing and crying because you were not attached to the role in the same way THAT i. Was and you mentioned burnout an imposter syndrome.

8:30 Earlier and so what happens is when we don't give ourselves permission to mourn and we don't acknowledge the, grief it doesn't go. Away, unfortunately it starts to leak, out and so it leaks out in the form of, burnout cognition. Issues it's like memory, loss not being able to put two thoughts, together, sleep appetite is, disrupted and so it has a lot of symptoms that may be attributed to other. Things and SO i think it's important to, say, hey wait a, second was there something that happened that meant more to me THAN i thought it? Did? Yeah, Yeah because believe it or, not there are a lot of people that identify with their jobs or the position that they're, in and when if that's disrupted or they're let go fired for some, reason you, know then to them it's.

9:26 Like what, now what DO i? DO i don't know what to do with, myself you. Know, so and they tend to have that type of reaction. Too they just don't don't know what to do next because they put everything into that one basket sort of. Speak AND i was there completely AFTER i was, FIRED i did not know what to. Do and even THOUGH i went on to other high profile jobs and on the outside the bio sounds really, good on the, INSIDE i was filled with imposter, syndrome and to be completely, TRANSPARENT i was also filled with a lot of self loathing BECAUSE i, thought how COULD i have done. That how COULD i have messed up so? Horribly and so that's where we get into some really interesting territory because specifically with career, grief we have the visible loss and then we have the hidden. Losses so on the, OUTSIDE i lost my, JOB i lost my, TITLE i lost my, SALARY i lost a place to. GO i lost my parking.

10:36 SPACE i tell, you, Unturned, ELLEN i love that parking. Space it had my name on. It and WHEN i got that, promotion it meant so much to. ME i felt LIKE i had. Arrived and so losing, it, man it was like a knife in my. Heart but the most important thing is recognizing what are the losses that are underneath the job, title the, salary the. Benefits and so my, identity like you were talking, about my identity was completely trapped uh and woven into that. Job and SO i lost my, IDENTITY i lost my, PURPOSE i lost my sense of. BELONGING i lost my, work, family my.

11:17 Community and so even THOUGH i went on to other, JOBS i need to address. Losses and so that's WHY i continue to feel so much pain and. Suffering, wow that's, Interesting and LIKE i, said a lot of people don't even recognize that that could possibly be, it or they have put themselves in that position so deeply that if, that if anything should, happen that they would spiral like. That it's just unbelievable sometimes to think about. That so tell us what are some. Less obvious losses people experience in their careers that they don't always recognize as.

12:04 Grief, yeah so there are three types of labels of, grief and So i've been referencing What i'm going to call like a single grief. EVENT i got, fired a project was, Defunded so there's something very very. Clear there are also WHAT i call death by a thousand cuts accumulative. Effect so AND i see this a lot with job seekers who send out one hundred and fifty resumes and they don't hear anything any single one of those. Events it's, like, eh it's a paper. Cut but when you have one hundred and fifty of, them then you're, like what just happened to my? Finger and so that like it becomes.

12:50 Cumulative and so again that's where people sometimes get confused and are reluctant to label their experience as grief because there isn't a single defined. Event and then there's a third category that is more ambiguous. Grief for, me it took about four months between the difficult conversation that my boss was not happy with me BEFORE i was officially, fired SO i didn't know what was. Happening so it was really ambiguous because there was no clear. ENDING i was just like left in a free for. All and So i'm going to go back to this idea of attachment that anything that you were attached to that was, severed that meant a great deal to. You it's irrelevant whether anyone else thinks that that's worthy of. Grief it's worthy of grief because you were attached to. It and So i'm just thinking of a client who didn't get a promotion that she'd been working towards for about nine, months and people are, like you are on a good, track everyone loves. You it went to the person who had more, experience they'd been around. Longer your turn is, Next do not. Worry because she was so, devastated and so people just couldn't wrap their heads around. It but for, her she had spent nine months proving, herself going above and, beyond and so every time one of those things wasn't, recognized that was like another little paper.

14:18 Cut, absolutely AND i have been down that road. ALSO i mean applying for a position THAT i knew THAT i was qualified. FOR i had someone on the board THAT i knew would be an advocate for me and all of, that and they wound up picking someone that wasn't even a part of the. Organization and and the thing about the whole, SITUATION i, thought you, KNOW i KNEW i was good at WHAT i, did AND i also knew this person did not have the qualifications. THAT i, had but they picked them, anyway and. About three months is so IN i think they he.

15:01 Quit he could not he couldn't handle the. Position and they came to me and asked me WHAT i stepped into that, position WHICH i could have BEEN i thought back, then And i'm GLAD i. Didn't but back THEN i could have Been patty and, said, no you didn't give it to me when, they you, know applied for. IT i don't want it, Now BUT i. DIDN'T i took the, position and it did spiral my, career you. Know so WHEN i look back on, IT i, think, well it's a, good you know thing THAT i didn't turn it down when they offered it to, me because it led to other, Things but it was just THAT i kept, thinking why would they put him in a position that they knew that they had someone more qualified For, so like you, SAY i was. Devastated it was like a slap in my.

15:49 Face you. Know SO, i LIKE i, Said i've been down that. ROAD i CAN i can relate to people that feel that. Way, well, yes, Yes AND i really appreciate what you're saying because it feels like within that you were able to say. Ouch and it's one of the things THAT i encourage people to do is in professional, settings we don't have permission to say. Out but at home it's so important with our trusted, friends the people who are close to us to say ouch and not bury, it because if we don't say, ouch then the grease starts to leak out in other ways the way, absolutely MAY i ask you a follow up question around that, experience when you decide in that, moment if you can recall when you decided, to when they came back around and, said, hey will you take this? Position what were you saying yes? To, like how were you able to overcome the? Ouch?

16:48 WELL i think because LIKE i, SAID i knew it was myself and it was three because it was four candidate it was myself and the other candidates all. MEN i was the only female, applying AND i looked. At it as, Though, okay do you just male in this position because you feel like they can handle it, better or do you want someone with experience in this? Position you? Know and so when they came to me and they asked me to step in the, POSITION i, thought you, know for a little glimmer, THERE i was, like, YEAH. I should just tell them. This, yeah probably that would have felt so. SATISFYING i would have been.

17:34 Satisfied BUT i guess even THOUGH i hadn't heard the saying Then i'll say What Michelle obama said when they. Alo we go. By so that's WHY i, decided you. Know but it was one of those things WHERE i at the, POSITION i KNEW i could do. It and so ALTHOUGH i was a little angry at them for doing it the way they did, it the fact that they came back to me and they asked me to step into the, position AND i also knew it was an important position and something that was needed in the. Organization and SO i went on AND i stepped into the. POSITION i just and as you, SAID i had a buffer WHEN i was WHEN i was turned down for the, POSITION i had like outlets, people you, know so THAT i could talk to an event SO i didn't have to hold it all.

18:26 In AND i think IF i had, to IF i had held. It all in and not be able to vent and just talk to someone and tell them HOW i felt about, it be able to yell about, it like how could they do this to? ME i think, then and it's AND i even have a part of it in MY TEDx talk THAT i. DID i even talked about it in that BECAUSE i think it was an important story that a lot of women especially is. Experienced so and and and. SO i just LIKE i, said said there was that one glimmer that, said BUT i felt that it was more important for me to do it to show, that, yes you could have.

19:09 A female in this. Position it's not just a male position because you feel they can do it, better you, know, yeah, Yes. And you just touched on another form of cumulative or ambiguous grief which is being passed over because of, race, gender and, so because it's so much a part of what happens in at Least i'm going to say like in THE, us in terms of the. Workforce we just look at Or i'm going to, SAY i just look at. It it's, like, oh that's just part of what, happens AND i don't recognize it as something that's really stepping on my values and what's important to. Me and so over, time, though there becomes a tonage of. That and yet it's, like, well that's just the way it, is the way it, is you, know but it is that's. GRIEF i mean there's grief.

20:04 There, yeah absolutely absolutely. So but you, know LIKE i, said it all worked out and and NOW i can use it as a story to help other women to move forward and not get stuck in a tunnel, saying, well you, know Maybe i'm not good enough start thinking having these would if, thoughts well they didn't want, me maybe you, know Maybe i'm not as good AS i THINK i am or something like. That SO i think. That's a part of that ends up being a part of The greef, thing you, know period two where you start doubting yourself you, know. Oh my, gosh, yes. YEAH I i had an image in my head of WHO i was AT, Cbs like part of my identity was THAT i was competent and, capable which is WHY i was promoted every eighteen to twenty four. Months and so every TIME i got one of those, promotions that reinforced this identity THAT i had UNTIL i was fired and then oh, wow to have to be able to rebuild that BECAUSE i was filled with so much imposter. Syndrome AND i told myself all these.

21:11 Stories and there's a framework THAT i use WHEN i support people who are working through a through career. Grief it's Called Rise, Rise and you AND i just spoke about the first LETTER, r which is recognize the loss and say. Ouch the second step is stands FOR, i is investigate the. Meaning and so WHEN i started to learn more about, GRIEF i was able to question AM i? Incapable AM i? Incompetent and so the path forward there's data over. Drama, okay what is the data that Supports i'm, Incompetent i'm? Incapable and so WHEN i just looked at it very, factually it was, like, Well i've gone on to multiple, jobs not one hundred. Percent but THEN i also had to say what is actually mine to? Own because being fired just doesn't come out of the. Blue and so WHAT i was able to recognize and own AS i. Investigated this meaning that AM i incompetent or?

22:16 Incapable is THAT i essentially grew up AT. CBS i worked there for ten years and SO i had a real professional maturation, happen and AS i rose up through the, RANKS i became more confident and SO i would speak out. More and at that, TIME cbs was not a culture that valued independent, thought and SO i was like an upstart teenager AND i was, LIKE i just had to be slapped. Down and so it, was you, know very much like you just never said anything that would be construed as not one hundred percent supporting what my superiors were. Thinking your point of, view so to.

22:57 Speak, yeah, Yeah and that's that's always one that can get a, person and probably both you AND I bothe in trouble a lot of times because it's like if you you, know one of those, things if you see, something you want to say something or you want to do something about, it and a lot of times it depends on what it is and who it. Is, they you, know the top don't want you a lot of times to be visible like that saying something or doing something about. It and that's another factor that comes into, play and those are all the things that you know when you go through. That instead of doubting yourself the first thing looking at well what DID i? Do you, know stop and think, maybe, hey why did they do? This what was the reasoning behind? There you, know thinking that they needed to fire, me because it doesn't necessarily have to be you.

23:59 Not if you know you're a person that is not working at that, level then't own. That you, know go ahead and own. It but if you, know like you, said you were doing the, job you were, capable you were, confident then don't let the first thought be what DID i? Do or AM i not you, know capable of doing this? Job is that why they fired? Me started looking at it from the point of view of, okay what is their, problem let's look at. Yeah, yeah it's like really like looking at all the, Data yeah, exactly because there may also be external factors as. Well and So i'm thinking they pulled support on my initiative That i've been working on for months and months and.

24:44 Months but Then i'm, like, okay you, know they're, jerks they don't get. It but THEN i have to widen the lens and, go oh wait a second there are, tariffs there's a. War it's like there are other. Factors it's never all us or all all. Them and SO i feel like part of my belief system is the path to success is just analytically, rationally just like looking at what's the, data BECAUSE i want to know how DID i screw? Up BECAUSE i don't want to repeat that. Mistake and SO i wasn't reading the. Room it's Like, i'm you, know feeling, all you, know cocky and strong and all, that AND i WAS i missed the signals. Exactly AND i understand that. Completely and that's.

25:27 That is, so you, KNOW i think that's so true for a lot of us when we enter into that type of. Situation we have not read the room because we think everything is going fine because we know we're doing. What we're supposed to do the way we're supposed to do, it. And so we don't see maybe the little thing or the little sign that might be. There we may overlook. That but that's WHEN i say you have to stop and take a step back and, Say, okay NOW i need to start reading this room and see what was actually. Going on THAT i. Missed, yeah, yes, Yeah but why do you think.

26:11 So many high performing people struggle to name what they're feeling about us set back. Because it doesn't align with one's identity as being. Successful AND i think Doctor, meteline you AND i both, know And i'm sure everyone watching and. Listening success does not come without. Failure success doesn't come without, mistake success doesn't come without face. Plants, however we live in a work culture where there's a lot of talk and performance around, oh fail, faster fail, quicker or fail. Better but the truth is if we say publicly or own this is a, failure then we get labeled as a, failure and so our work cultures don't actually support AND i think it's it's like one of the biggest flaws In western workplace culture is not really having the proper ways to look at and, analyze both like intellectually but also from an emotional perspective what went. Wrong and SO i don't blame leaders for SAYING i wasn't a, Failure oh it was Doctor madeline's, faults because it's it's self. Protection but over the long, term it actually it completely strangles. Innovation it completely guts the trust that's needed for teams to be able to. Build it impacts, efficiency. Productivity it's.

27:45 And you, know even WHEN i was going through WHAT i went through with the, promotion it WAS i. KNEW i mean BECAUSE i was with an organization that was basically a male dominated. Organization So i'm in a WAY i wasn't surprised that they chose the male you, know because in their, eyes most of the positions that were being. Held at an upper, level. It seemed they felt were men were more capable of doing. It if it was more on the technical. Side, now if it was on The edmund, side oh, yeah we didn't place you, know her in. It it's okay for her to be in it, Then AND i think that that had a lot to do with the organization, too the mindset that men belong on one side of the, house where the females belong on the other side of the.

28:37 House and so when you try to cross, over because you know that you're capable of doing, both, really you, know then that becomes where they have to look at it and, say, oh, Well i'm going to go with him BECAUSE i think he'll do it, better whereas a lot of, times, no that's not necessarily the, case and it wasn't the. Case and what happened with me because the what the work, was so you, know but. There's so the unconscious and conscious bias that, exists and it's one one thing That i've learned to. Develop it's not a magic, elixir but finding an affinity. Match, so for, EXAMPLE i want to learn how to golf because a lot of the people THAT i interact, with especially, men love to play, golf and SO i like to try to find something that allows me to have an, organic natural connection to try to work against the unconscious or conscious bias that, exists BECAUSE i want to start to create like a little path of oh Maybe laverne as a mixed race woman is actually capable of something in addition to admin and so will give me an opportunity

30:09 or a shot Because i've been able to create to show that we have something in common that allows them to potentially see me a little differently that can break through that. Bias and that's what they tend to a lot of. Times and this has been from way. Back you've heard the fact that men tend to make a lot of deals on the golf course because you, know that's where they, are that's where they spend their. Time and if you're not there to know what's going. On sometimes you get left, behind you, know the, curve because you don't just because you don't know how to play. Golf and it's it's interesting that you brought that up because my first, book WHEN i did my my doctor, DISSERTATION i and THEN i turned it into a, BOOK i titled it playing from The Blue Tea We, Want, so you, know it's just interesting that you brought that. Up but, yeah you do those. Things but and that's Why i'm a firm.

31:14 Believer when you're in an, organization that's why you have to know as much as you can about that, organization because you have to understand how it, thinks how the, people especially the people up, top how they, think and for the most, part you, know so that you can really try to understand and not get thrown into these. Loops now that's not going to always be the, case that you, won't but if you learn as much as you can about the organization and do the little things that you might need to do to stay visible so that you know when it's time for you to move or to be promoted or someone to advocate for, you it's because they know that you you been in those.

32:02 Places you've done certain things to put yourself out there to be, visible so they can, say, oh, yeah well maybe you know, that, no we maybe let's just try her for a little, while Because i've told my, clients when you go for a position and they have that, hesitancy you, know just tell, them, hey put me in a position for thirty days and let me show you WHAT i can. Do and then if you feel LIKE i, Can't i'm not capable of doing, it OR i can't do, it then we, can you, know come back and discuss, that because sometimes it's a matter of just letting them, know, HEY i CAN i can do it just as well as anyone else can do, It. Okay, yes, yes, Yeah and IT'S i feel like it that having to prove oneself that that can. Like And i'm also a big believer in hard truths THAT i had a coach who early in my career who said love the truth, first love yourself, second love others, third and she's, like eighty percent of the truth. SUCKS i was, LIKE i don't know IF i necessarily believe, that but it's THAT i can complain about it OR i can surrender to the truth and then figure, Out, okay how DO i finagle my way to get WHAT i to leave my purpose and honor my values exactly.

33:25 Exactly and that's that's the thing you want to stay when you talk about honoring your, values and you know you want to make sure that you stay true to yourself and to your values and. Everything but you know, you LIKE i, said you just make sure you understand the, culture so to, speak and how everything. Works AND i think. That's what will, help especially women a lot of times they understand how the culture of an organization. Works, yeah women are. Extraordinary And i've witnessed this firsthand in myself and other women that when we receive no matter how horrible it, is but as long as we receive, it we are incredible problem solvers and we create The.

34:18 Yeah and when we try to deny and negate put our blinders, on then we get out of, alignment and then we can no longer access our natural ability to create something from. Nothing so now you said that grief has, tests not. Rules what are the risks when people try to follow rules? Instead, yeah there are so many grief. Rules we talked. About one of the primary ones that grief is only related to loss of. Life there's also like, rules Doctor, Madeline i'm so sorry for your Lost take the weekend and we'll see you On. Monday and so there's this unspoken rule that it's, like, oh as soon as you have the memorial or the, funeral then you're, done and grief doesn't work on it that particular. Timetable there's also confusing rules around Doctor. Madeline why aren't you? Crying are you not upset about the? Loss, oh Doctor, madlin you're crying like reel it. In it's like you're just emoting too.

35:24 Much so it's very confusing of these. Rules and so what happens is that rules tell you that you're right or you're, wrong and there is no right or wrong in terms of how we. Grieve we have preferences and then we have these. Tasks and So i'm a quick sidebar is that many people have heard Of Elizabeth Kobler ross's five stages of grief and so, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance and forgetting one of, them but people believe they have to work through those stages of. Grief Doctor Kluber ross created this framework specifically from observing people who were given a terminally ill, diagnosis and so she never meant to say that a it's linear or that everybody experiences.

36:18 This so the tasks of, grief AND i reference this briefly with THE rise, framework is that you recognize that there's a, loss you investigate the, meaning and then the third step is to create a ritual to have a good. Goodbye most times with career, grief we don't have a good. Goodbye we don't have a chance to say farewell to the thing that we are attached. To but it doesn't mean that you can't craft a good goodbye for. Yourself so for, EXAMPLE i had a writer THAT i worked with whose screenplayed it was just never, produced and it was a passion project for. Her so she created a ritual to say goodbye to that. Project she printed the script, out and she dug a hole in her backyard and she buried the, script and then she wrote a, eulogy and she read the eulogy out, loud apologizing to the script that she could not bring it into the world in the way that she had, dreamed and then she said rest in. Peace and it was that ritual that really allowed her.

37:23 That might be the acceptance part of? It would that be her stage of, acceptance so to. SPEAK i GUESS. I think it's part of, it and which is interesting because acceptance can even come from recognizing the laws or investigating the. Meaning and that's where the rules of grief get people, convoluted because we flow, in we flow, out we move, forward we move, back and then the final task is embracing what's. Next and so that's returning to what are my? Values what is my? Purpose because you can't go through a grief event and not be changed in some. Way so the purpose of mourning is to integrate the loss into our, lives as opposed to blowing past.

38:10 It, yeah. Exactly so tell me how do you think? GRIEF i should say career grief shows up in someone's, decisions are their? Behavior oh, Boy i'm going to reference myself on. This the first decision THAT i made after being fired FROM cbs was to say yes to the first job that was offered to me BECAUSE i had no self. ESTEEM i was. Panicked i'm the primary breadwinner for our family and was, LIKE i just have to GET i gotta pay the. Bills, Yeah and then it showed up WITH i was constantly second guessing. MYSELF i was doing things to prove, myself like overprove. MYSELF i lost my ability to be assertive or aggressive in the. MARKETPLACE i. SHRANK i JUST i just really really. Strank AND i see that in so many other. People another way it shows.

39:15 Up i'm just thinking about this BECAUSE I i'm talking with a client the other day that he kept. Minimizing he's, like he was, Saying, eh you, know it's not like brain. Surgery my job wasn't that important. ANYWAY i wasn't saving. Lives and SO i see that where people minimize because they don't want to say that that was something that was really important. Exactly, yeah, THIS i mean when you talk about, it you, know like. The career. GRIEF i, MEAN i GUESS i just it was just interesting WHEN i read you, know when you talked about the grief part and it was career. GRIEF i, thought, now this is interesting BECAUSE i don't think anyone ever put those two, together grief with your, career you, know like you, said the disruption in any way in your career as you grieving at any point because of, That, yes.

40:19 You might get. Angry you, might you, know like you, said take the first if you're, fired laid off or. Whatever take the first thing that comes. Along but you don't ever think to, Yourself i'm grieving over the fact That i've lost What i've had for ten, years twenty, years what have? You however long it's. Been AND i had identified myself in this position THAT i MAYBE i was going to retire from, this you, know. Yes, yeah the, dream, yes, absolutely. Yeah, wow, yeah that is so Interesting and it's just so much that we and co go so.

41:03 Quickly so tell me if. If you had one piece of advice that you would leave with our viewers and our listeners as it relates to career, grief what would that piece of advice. Be, well we touched on it, earlier and it's really to say ouch to take the time to sort of like you, know like check you like if you take a, tumble you, know you fall off your bike or. Something you take a minute and you, go, oh, okay is anything? Broken AM i? Scraped and so is to say to, Yourself, Oh i'm, sad and sadness is. Fleeting it can be. Intense grief is like it needs to be tended. To there's there's a there's a broken bone, there And i'm gonna go a little bit further than the question ask.

41:54 Me but grief and mourning is a process of integrating a loss into your life and into who you are. Becoming, because AS i said, earlier you don't experience grief without being changed in some. Way so you can't get over, grief you can't get past. Grief so IF i go back to the broken bone, analogy and this comes from an, Author Mary francis, O'Connor so, like IF i don't set the bone in my broken, arm COULD i move? It? Probably COULD i? Function? Maybe would it be really? Painful? Yes IF i set the, BONE i can regain. MOTION i can go about my daily life doing the things THAT i love to. Do if YOU x ray that bone ten years from, now fifty years from, now you will always see that it was. Broken so it is with career. Grief it will always be a part of, you but you get to choose how it influences and who it helps you. Become.

42:53 Next absolutely so tell, us Le, verne if any of our viewers and listeners wanted to reach out to, you maybe to work with you in some way to help help them through any career, grief how can they contact? You i'd love to send people to my, website which Is laverne McKinnon dot. Com and once you go, there you can sign up for my, newsletter and as part of the, NEWSLETTER i have a career grief. Group and So i'm not going to say too much more about it because people can go to the website and check it, out BUT i hope folks, do and there are a lot of free resources and articles and things like that that can help people in their grief. Journey.

43:37 Right thank you so. Much it has been such a pleasure to be able to chat with you about this. Topic LIKE i, said it's so much MORE i know we could have covered as it relates to, that because so many of us go through especially women go through, it and we don't even realize that we're grieving or what the process is or even how sometimes to pull ourselves was out of. It SO i do want to thank you for coming and sharing your nuggets with, us and it has definitely been a pleasure having. Me on the. Show thank you so. Much all, Righty, well just to let everyone know what's coming up, NEXT i am excited to share THAT i have been named to The women In Leadership top one hundred lists for the twenty twenty six by The Global Publishing Media. Group this list recognizes influential female leaders driving change across global, industries AND i am just so honored to be among. THEM i am also excited to let you know THAT i will be a keynote speaker at the on IT X International conference which will be taking Place may fourteenth through the seventeenth and at The well at The Emotion resort In beautiful in The Beautiful Dominican.

45:03 Republic i'm looking forward to that they are having a graduation ceremony AND i will also be speaking to the graduates and also speaking to those that are looking to be. Speakers So i'm excited about being able to be a part of that. Program i'm also excited that again to let you know that The Successful women radio AND tv show made the rank of Feed spots list of top one hundred Best, career mindset And Working women, podcasts and that we have gone from number sixteen on. The list to number. Eleven, so IF i have to say so, MYSELF i think that's a good. Thing this list highlights podcasts that empower women to build successful, careers navigate workplace, challenges and find true fulfillment in work and life and so this is an honor to be recognized on that. List, also if you have not viewed MY TEDx talk THAT i did In, Vancouver, canada make sure to do. So the topic was show up To Rise? Up or is show up To Rise? Up you can watch it on YouTube and just put my name in the search box Doctor madeline And lewis and it should come right. Up if, not you can email me for the direct link at info AT exwsi dot. Com as you, Know i'm trying to get to a million plus views right, now it's

46:36 at two hundred and forty six, thousand five hundred and eleven, views SO i want to thank those of you in advance for your, support those of you who have supported, it and those of you who will support it in the. Future continue to, share continue to like and comment on the. Video i'm also a contributing writer for On it, magazine WHERE i contribute a article every. Month Own It magazine is. A magazine that is for a resource for personal and professional development and personal professional and business. Development so if you'd like to get a free, subscription you can email me again at info AT exwsi dot. COM i want to thank you again for watching.

47:31 Us on The Successful Women's. Show i'd like to thank my, Guests Miss laverne McKinnon for sharing such great nuggets with us. Today i'm Doctor Madelin Anne, lewis and if you'd like to reach out to, me you can always email me at info AT exwsi dot. Com i'm also on all of the social media, platforms so you can also reach out to me that. Way don't forget to subscribe to our channel also to like and share this episode with. Others, again this is The Successful Women's. Show we are here every. WEEK i am your, host Doctor madeline And lewis helping women to accelerate the path to. Success thank you again for joining. US i love you all to life and as, always be well and stay safe out.

48:26 There this is, Success successful. Sun, Set Successful. Women m